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  • #6741

    Naur
    Participant

    It has been a really good experience, but IMHO with potential for much more depending on the Devs vision/intent.

    The best:

    1) The Exploration-Roguelike part feels like an awesome addition to the “dungeon lair” game: areas like the zombie tombs, elven towns and the spider den makes you to change strategy’s/equipment/creatures to combat and sometimes drop special items on top making them both rewarding and interesting. In fact the first time I found the vampire lord I thought that all the special/legendary creatures would be added via quests/exploration and I still think that would be awesome: Defeat the dragon and kidnap his egg-child to get a little dragon later. Find the exit to a labyrinth to get a Minotaur. Defeat a Death Knight to force him into submission etc…

    2) Exploring or using other peoples dungeons/traps is other awesome idea, but somehow not fully supported. Destroying other Keepers dungeon could be better rewarded (special item? leader-board with most dungeons defeated?), as man made dungeons can be a real pain to defeat. Other implementation that could be good is rating other keepers dungeons: encouraging people to make some awesome ones and sharing them. (and maybe only dungeons with X stars give the rewards, to reduce possible abuse of the system)

    3) Random attack + “complex” interactions: burning the enemy’s wooden floor to decimate its creatures (and maybe some yours), having a dragon in your entrance when some dwarfs try to attack you and then watch them burn, raiding those pointy eared elfs at night so they don’t destroy your forces in an instant, having your legendary vampire fight without head (but shouldn’t he recover it if he sleeps in his tomb?)…. all those kind of things are what bring life to the game. More of them would be awesome!

    4) The music, totally fitting!

    What IMHO needs to be polished:

    A) Many game-play systems are still obscured/not really intuitive if you don’t use a wiki. Hardcore players wont have problem with it, but many people will be dissuaded when they don’t understand many things. Some examples:
    – Undead vampires/zombies cant sustain sun and that’s awesome, but somehow ghost can
    – You research legendary creatures but its not really explained that you need succubus to get them, if there is a max amount you can have or what happens if you loose them
    – Without the wiki you cant understand how to get prisoners
    – Some spells need graphic feedback and better description (like most master spells)
    – Many interface / common use things are not really that visible: remove construction and fill up tunnel are “correct error” tools, and as such should be always visible (probably reinforce wall too, but maybe first it should be explained what is its use -boulders-)

    B) Again a more casual related thing: many players leave games when they don’t find the promise of fun in the first minutes of the game. And KeeperRLs early game is totally peaceful and really doesn’t promote some early goal like “survive your first 3 days”, “explore your first region” or “defeat the first miniboss” that can keep people encouraged. I know that many people want time to make a perfect dungeon or don’t need goals because they construct them, but if we see other games normally the 100% peaceful mode is an option and not part of the campaign. Examples: In Dungeon Keeper and Majesty you are attacked on the first levels (ofc by easily to dispatch minions) and even in “one map” games like Minecraft, Starbound or Kingdom: New Lands you will be attacked the first night.
    The goals can be even seamlessly integrated to the game: by discovering in the library the location of artifacts, informing the player that in X days there will be a “an invasion” or some tribe/creature demanding tribute or that you leave their domains.

    C) Personality and Balance. Right now some creatures have really unique things, but others are just bland or, worse useless. Some examples:
    – Beast are a little stronger early game, but with 0 incentive to attack or need to defend on that time, you can skip them all with humanoids. You may use a bat/raven to explore, but then you kill them or are killed. (For some reason even good creatures like to kill innocent, non attacking animals xD). War for the overworld solves this by making them count another kind of population, but in my opinion its better to make them still useful/relevant later by giving them other utility’s. (things like maybe Werewolfs are created from wolfs, ravens can spot invisible creatures and have amazing evasion etc…)
    – Zombies are useless, you never want them (I would make them just mindless neutral creatures that attack living things -even yours- and can propagate their infection when its host dies, creating an equally leveled zombi that does the same -maybe a spell creates them?-)
    – Ghost are the same if you have another ritual creature
    – Things that are just plain upgrades (like ogres being just a little slow, but far better orcs)

    I know that these are only my opinions, but if I use my time to write them is because I really like the game and hope that they may help to make it better.

    #6768

    Thank you for the wall of ideas and comments :). I’ll reply to some of them inline.

    In fact the first time I found the vampire lord I thought that all the special/legendary creatures would be added via quests/exploration and I still think that would be awesome: Defeat the dragon and kidnap his egg-child to get a little dragon later. Find the exit to a labyrinth to get a Minotaur. Defeat a Death Knight to force him into submission etc…

    Good point. Getting the legendary creatures through succubi breeding is kind of temporary, so I could turn them into prizes instead, as you described. I would probably want to add side quests for that and not make them a part of the main game.

    2) Exploring or using other peoples dungeons/traps is other awesome idea, but somehow not fully supported.

    Do you mean that the gameplay is not good enough or the sharing framework? If the latter, then I do plan to extend it, with ratings, comments, lists of conquerors, etc.

    3) Random attack + “complex” interactions: burning the enemy’s wooden floor to decimate its creatures (and maybe some yours), having a dragon in your entrance when some dwarfs try to attack you and then watch them burn, raiding those pointy eared elfs at night so they don’t destroy your forces in an instant, having your legendary vampire fight without head (but shouldn’t he recover it if he sleeps in his tomb?)…. all those kind of things are what bring life to the game. More of them would be awesome!

    Ideas, please 🙂

    4) The music, totally fitting!

    I fully agree 🙂

    – Undead vampires/zombies cant sustain sun and that’s awesome, but somehow ghost can

    Good point. I will add a ‘vulnerable to sunlight’ status so you can see exactly which creatures are.

    – You research legendary creatures but its not really explained that you need succubus to get them, if there is a max amount you can have or what happens if you loose them

    You can see that info in the immigration help window. But the legendary creatures will be reworked anyway, as I mentioned above.

    – Without the wiki you cant understand how to get prisoners

    True. That mechanic will also be reworked and I’ll make sure to document it well in the game.

    – Many interface / common use things are not really that visible: remove construction and fill up tunnel are “correct error” tools, and as such should be always visible

    Do you mean they should be at the top level in the building menu?

    (probably reinforce wall too, but maybe first it should be explained what is its use -boulders-)

    I wasn’t even aware of that use 😛

    B) Again a more casual related thing: many players leave games when they don’t find the promise of fun in the first minutes of the game. And KeeperRLs early game is totally peaceful and really doesn’t promote some early goal like “survive your first 3 days”, “explore your first region” or “defeat the first miniboss” that can keep people encouraged. I know that many people want time to make a perfect dungeon or don’t need goals because they construct them, but if we see other games normally the 100% peaceful mode is an option and not part of the campaign. Examples: In Dungeon Keeper and Majesty you are attacked on the first levels (ofc by easily to dispatch minions) and even in “one map” games like Minecraft, Starbound or Kingdom: New Lands you will be attacked the first night.
    The goals can be even seamlessly integrated to the game: by discovering in the library the location of artifacts, informing the player that in X days there will be a “an invasion” or some tribe/creature demanding tribute or that you leave their domains.

    Great point. I had a plan to add some early game challenges, but that got buried somewhere deep. I would want to make sure that they are not a chore to people who play a lot. A pack of wolves that attack on the first night would work, perhaps. Long time ago there used to be a goat that ate your doors. I’m not sure why I removed it.

    #6770

    Naur
    Participant

    Thanks for the response! I think that some of the things that I said will be adressed with the upcoming changes that you publicated, so Ill answer the others:

    Do you mean that the gameplay is not good enough or the sharing framework? If the latter, then I do plan to extend it, with ratings, comments, lists of conquerors, etc.

    Yep, I was talking about the sharing framework and how it could be upgraded. But it seems you have it covered 😀

    Ideas, please

    Sadly making things “complex” normally means hard work, but I think that not fully controllable things (with a drawback) are the best to generate chaos and creative results, there are many in the wiki but I will throw some more:
    – For example a wind spell could put down near fire, but it also could expand fire that’s in the border of its (for example)”cone” shape. It could even interact too with gas clouds and make immune red/green dragons more formidable by moving/expanding fire/gas around them with their breath + “wing flaps”.
    – Other idea is somewhat what I said about treating zombies not as important or controllable creatures, but as a neutral plague delivery system that needs to be “outplayed” to make use of it. (killing enemy healers and then let zombies multiplicate)
    – Hiding could be made into a far more stronger/interesting mechanic that may let people do amazing things like evading a whole dungeon and kill its keeper with an adventurer with some little changes like: 1) monsters only see you while hiding if they are searching for intruders / see invisible things 2) You can maintain hiding if the next tile is hide-able. Some traps/minions can alert others of intruders.

    Do you mean they should be at the top level in the building menu?

    That would be a good solution.

    Great point. I had a plan to add some early game challenges, but that got buried somewhere deep. I would want to make sure that they are not a chore to people who play a lot. A pack of wolves that attack on the first night would work, perhaps. Long time ago there used to be a goat that ate your doors. I’m not sure why I removed it.

    I think that the change to mana acquisition will help a lot with this, but an evil goat that eats your doors may be fun too xD.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by  Naur.
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